Thursday, December 13, 2018

Writers and Artists (Alfred Corn's Thread)


Another thoughtful discussion of MFA programs. 



There have been many discussions of Facebook about the inadequacy or misguidedness of MFA programs in writing. And recently a friend sent me a rather depressing article about MFA programs in visual art. Putting aside the question of whether MFA programs are good or bad, I'm wondering about the applicants themselves. Thousands upon thousands enroll in arts programs every year, at institutions where the tuition is often astronomical and for a degree that does not entitle you to anything unless accompanied by solid professional achievement elsewhere. Why, in the USA since, say,1980, has it become so common an ambition to be a practitioner of a fine art? At the professional level, I mean, since there have always been Sunday painters and amateur writers of greeting card verse. Very few artists or writers generate significant income from their work. The fame of an artist never comes close to the fame of a rock star or movie actor. So what is the lure? Why do so many people want to be an ARTIST? And go into serious debt to get an MFA? (I'm putting aside the question of the psychological harm some people suffer in classroom or studio experiences.)
  • Maryann Corbett Some theories:


    The longstanding, loud advice to "do what you love" and "follow your bliss," which reinforces the hope we all have of actually liking the work that supports us.

    The fact that we associate "artists" with prestige, while the same skills (say, metalworking or draftsmanship) applied to industry or commerce are not so associated.

    The fact that so many people feel less prepared to enter the world of work than to keep on going to school.

    As I say, these are theories.



  • Peter Daniels To me it's about mentoring and feedback, primarily, and unexpected steering into work you wouldn't have got into on your own. That may not be what most people do it for, and it's probably impossible to avoid the expectation that being mentored by someone more famous than you are is going to make you famous.
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  • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams From talking to students, I’d say that many believe they will beat the odds. In the visual arts, many are gravitating to digital arts, with hopes of landing a job with Pixar, etc.
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    • Alfred Corn So it's more a question of applied art, which could generate income.
    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams Alfred Corn , yes, our Art Department sees fewer students wanting to be independent artists and more looking to industry jobs.
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    • Jack Miller Agree here. The two art colleges where I have taught, Atlanta College of Art and SCAD, represent the two polar opposites: the old-fashioned view of solitary or individual painters,etc. and the view of art as a cooperative, digital, state of the art (including advertising and commercial production) work for film, TV, and other mass art. Of course, I favor the former, with the visionary artists creating schools of art or art such as that of the Fauves, the Abstract Expressionists, etc. My former student, Kara E. Walker, represents the individual of insight and vision who changes the way we see and learn from art. I think many who seek an MFA or go to art colleges want an alternative to the materialistic, money-mad culture we live in.
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    • Jack Miller BTW, SCAD thrives. ACA disappeared after 100 years in Atlanta, to a great extent because of SCAD.
    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams Jack Miller one of my art profs went to ACA. The stories he told! Put me on fire for art!
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    • Jack Miller SCAD is a college that began in Savannah 40 years ago and it is full of stories and scandal. It has become international with branches in Atlanta, Hong Kong, and France. Oh the stories I'd love to share in private but dare not here! https://www.scad.edu/
      Home | SCAD.edu
      SCAD.EDU
      Home | SCAD.edu
      Home | SCAD.edu
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    • How SCAD sells a dream
      AJC.COM
      How SCAD sells a dream
      How SCAD sells a dream
    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams Jack Miller , oh that’s heartbreaking. Is ACA no longer running? It was such an awesome school.
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    • Jack Miller You read the AJC article?They are thriving as never before. I wish everyone would read the article and know what is going on there. I keep thinking it's a house of cards that will collapse; but the intermingling of a real estate boom and financial benefits for Savannah keep the school in power. There are some good teachers and courses there; but I don't think the ends justify the means.

    • Alfred Corn Jack Miller And scads of people have fallen for it.
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    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams Jack Miller, yes I read the article about SCAD. But what about Atlanta?
    • Jack Miller OH, ACA is gone. Yes, heart breaking. A story in itself about how SCAD convinced the Woodruff Art Center to close ACA and handover its wonderful library to SCAD. The story from a business point of view. It was a brutal "merger" and the President of ACA was fired with little warning as I recall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_College_of_Art
      Atlanta College of Art - Wikipedia
      EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
      Atlanta College of Art - Wikipedia
      Atlanta College of Art - Wikipedia
    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams Jack Miller , oh, horrible. I had no idea.
    • Atlanta College of Art Friends
      Atlanta College of Art Friends
      Atlanta College of Art Friends
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    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams Jack Miller , I still remember a story my teacher told me about his time at ACA. There was a contest for best Easter poster and everybody was doing all this pastel stuff, except one student picked up whole tubes of paint, garish colors, and squeeze them into the paper and created a masterpiece (he won). I remember that for the courage to break from tradition. I think about it a lot.






      Jack Miller I taught at ACA for 17 years and have many fond memories. I am still in touch with some of the graduates, a few of whom actually make a living through art. I taught aesthetics, ideas in film, ethics, existentialism, and 20th C. art history. I loved the creativity and non-conformist takes the students had on philosophical ideas and art.

  • Mare Heron Hake When I went for my MFA (in my early fifties) I knew from the first day the likelihood of making money from it was nearly nil. The best I could hope for was an added bump for teaching. That being said, I went for community, for people who understood what I loved and why I needed to be there. I was extremely lucky in that the program I attended was unique and supportive in every way--well-known (at least locally) for being so. But without that group of people who walked with me to be a writer and poet, to help me understand what those words even meant, to share their own significant stories, to see the best way to mentor and teach, I would be diminished, shriveled, chopped at the root. Debt? Yes. I have it. Lots. Regrets? Almost none. I would say without hesitation that the MFA debt bought the life I have now. That it doesn't buy groceries is another issue.
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    • Renée Roehl I went late, too, and had already been a poet for years. I have moved around a lot in my life, detoured my art life for a couple of reasons and I wanted to find my community/tribe of people. I got assistant-ships, some financial aid and grants to pay for it otherwise I couldn't have really done it as I had a 10 year old and a 19 year old. I enjoyed the dedicated time with my group of people and I did get what I wanted. That said, I didn't need the "artist label" that I saw some of my younger colleagues going for nor was I trying to find myself outside of this dysfunctional cog/wheel cultural work grind. And I got to teach creative writing which was something I wanted to do as well.
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  • Doug Anderson I read that article. The issues are different for visual artists. The article questions the influence of theory in those programs, e.g.; theory giving students permission to create bullshit, noting one instance of a student dumping jello down her panty hose. MFA programs in writing don't have a theory problem. They have other problems.
  • Don Lawson I didn't get an MFA (they weren't really fashionable back in my day and comparatively few institutions offered them). I did get an MA/PhD while being warned annually about what a small percentage of such folks got tenure-track jobs. I did end up getting tenured, etc., but at the time I was getting my degrees my thought process was more like "even if I don't end up in academia, for the years I do this, I'm getting to do what I want and few people ever get even a few years of that in their lives."
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  • Alfred Corn Again, my focus wasn't on the adequacy or inadequacy of the programs, but instead on the applicants. Why is it in this historical moment do so many desire to be professional artists?
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  • Peter Cherches When I started working on mine in 1978 it was already clear that most schools didn't consider it a "terminal degree" for teaching purposes unless backed up with a solid publication cv. But I don't think it's a matter of more people now wanting to be artists, I think it's a matter of a big pool among younger artists and the pool thins out after reality sets in, which has always been the case. When I started at Columbia Hope Plumley, who was the admin for the program, said to me that in 5 years more than half of my fellow students would no longer be writing. I think those who do it now, if they're at all realistic, do it for the focus, community, connections and time to devote to writing as a main occupation if you're in a full-time program. I hope most aren't silly enough to believe it will lead to a job.
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  • Doug Anderson That's a big problem. MFA programs need the money to stay afloat.
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  • George Szirtes Because education is not entirely about jobs and income?
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    • Theresa Ann Aleshire Williams University is seen more and more as job prep. I have watched it going that way for some time. 😟
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    • Alfred Corn That is, ideally, true, George. When I taught in MFA programs, I of course knew that very few would make a career in writing. (Though in fact many former students have published and two of them won Pulitzers; one is Poet Laureate; two have served as Chancellors of the Academy of American Poets; two work as editors; and many have tenured posts teaching writing.) No, I said that as a minimum, they would be better readers. To me, being a good reader is just as noble as being good writer.
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  • Aamer Hussein A lot of my students felt there was quick, and enormous sums of, money to be had from writing...young writers I meet today still do. And that one story will get them an agent and a ladder to the pinnacles of fame.
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  • Clifford Mynes The colleges will shovel as many students as they can into a program, and they recruit at various conferences.
    A college will only cut a program that isn’t cost effective. That said, recruitment promises must be considered, tho I am not privy to any po    pular phrases from that: be all you can be, be a painter? Dubious.
    MFAs are decent currency in public schools, as the usual new teacher is an education major 
    Why would someone go-/ cuz it’s fun, and because working in a bar hurts your knees after awhile.
    Do some students have illusions/delusions/ hopes of success— well don’t we all.
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  • Ed Adams Young people want to believe that what they feel and think and experience has meaning, and that they are special. Being an artist means you are a sensitive person, not just another brick in the wall. Also, perhaps they've already created something that had not only meaning for them but a magical component, that is, a feeling of connection to something real and enduring, and they feel a strong desire to keep feeling connected in a genuine way, of living a meaningful life, even if it's only meaningful to one's self.
    • Alfred Corn To me, being an excellent reader is as noble as being a writer.
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    • Ed Adams Yes, to me too. But if the desire or dream to write is expressed, pretty hard to discourage that in a young person.
    • Ed Adams I agree, the idea of the nobility of the reader should be out there. (and now it is!).
  • Bill Tremblay It's possible that an MFA is like what "the European tour" used to be.
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  • Paul A. White It saves my life to write.... no cliche here.... but MFA.... naw... that would burden me... writing was about unburdening me... but it would be nice to have something to show for it besides tubs and tubs of notebooks and papers. A life, thats it! And gratefulness...
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  • Brad Richard Having followed some of my former students (I teach high school), some pursue the MFA because they love the art form and they want to develop a community that will sustain their artistic careers for the long haul, whether whatever jobs they pursue for money take them into academia or other fields. Those are the ones who tend to continue writing and to be happy with wherever their artistic careers may take them. There are others who, I think, have been seduced by the creepy low stakes/high drama of academia, where the scarcer the resources and acclaim become, the more viciously everyone competes. That's bled over into the poetry world for a long time. Students who see those ethereal baubles as stuff worth fighting for are more likely to burn out and quit writing--or discover that they're not sure if they ever really cared about the art form in the first place. Or--they become the most terrifying colleague in your department.
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  • Bill Lantry Just read that article. Ouch! One of the main claims is that these degrees benefit the professors, not the candidates, who face a non-existent job market. Then we find out the article's author is getting a Ph.D. In English!

    Cold hard facts: at most Un    iversities, Undergraduate programs exist to support graduate programs. And Master's programs - of all types, but especially M.A.s and M.F.A.s - exist to support doctoral programs. M.F.A.s and M.A.s are cash cows, and the University uses the funds as freely disponible profits for other programs that are not economically viable. Yes, a few Ivies have an 'every tub on it's own bottom' rule, but most Universities have no such compunctions.
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  • Anthony Harrington I remember a comment once made by that great cynical poet Turner Cassity that the Creative Writing offerings by colleges and universities were a ploy to make up the deficit in tuition when enrollment in English Major programs. dipped way down.
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    • Alfred Corn See Bill Lantry's comment above. My sense has always been that English Departments didn't take Creative Writing very seriously, certainly not as seriously as regular courses and scholarship. They were much more rigorous with their standards when hiring faculty for the regular courses.
  • Amanda Fuller Richards I think for most it's about finding a community and a network.

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  • Moore Bowen I would make a distinction between BEING and artist and PRACTICING an art. To BE an artist is an ambition, and I don't know why anyone would want to BE one. In my experience, to PRACTICE an art is to be answering an irresistible call, or a compulsion, or a need for expressive therapy in this crazy world. The most prolific artist I know refused offers to show and said he was working out his theology.
    • Alfred Corn That's you. But I sense that the many want to be an ARTIST. It's a cool thing to be. Think of Dickinson, Van Gogh, Ginsberg, Sylvia and Ted. Artists get to lead non-suburban lives and be admired. Some get to kill themselves and become legends. Immortality.
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    • Ed Adams It's pretty silly alright :)
    • Alfred Corn Of course not. That's you and you being informed. But the beginner isn't likely to know much about those figures except how great they are.

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  • Christopher Hall My general comment on MFA Writing Programs is that they mostly only develop writers of literary fiction. That accounts for about 7 percent of the fiction sold today. The balance is for genre fiction which most MFA Programs don't even recognize.. I've steered students away from these programs as a waste of time and money..
  • Brigham Taylor Writing mfas count as a terminal degree, which makes you eligible for permanent hires in a college writing program. These jobs are still in demand, and it’s cheaper and faster than a PhD.
  • Christopher Hall I remember the late Robert Ferro telling me that it took him fifteen years to forget everything he learned at the Iowa Writers with Vonnegut as teacher.
  • Bryan D. Dietrich Personally, I needed mentors and a writing community. Plus it led to my professorship.
  • Surazeus Simon Seamount So many people are taking art because our cultural stories are full of fabulous legends of the Artists and Poets who achieve immortal fame through the apotheosis of critical analysis. Each individual wants to strive to achieve that same adoring fame of cultural worship, to become the Keats and the Dickinson and the Kahlo and the Van Gogh and the Lowell and the Plath of future mythology.
  • Mark Weiss Wanting to be an artist (poet, etc)--sure, but without the risks of doing it on one's own. The MFA as a requirement for guild membership. That a very few go on to do great work is a wonder, and they probably would have, anyway.
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  • Chard DeNiord To study with an accomplished person or persons in the field with the hope of developing one's skills and talent as a writer, painter, dancer, etc. It's an apprenticeship.
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  • Valerie Lawson I was just accepted into the MFA in Writing & Publishing at VCFA after writing for many years. I feel like my writing plateaued in recent years. I'm going to push my work in poetry, and to explore other genres. This is an interesting program where you get to try out fiction, poetry, nonfiction, and play/screenwriting, besides the focus on your selected genre. I'm also a small press publisher, and there are opportunities to explore more in the publishing world. AND they have a solid interface with literary agents and publishers, so there is possible professional advancement. I'm not interested in a teaching gig. The work on my writing is most important. (FTR, I will only go if there is significant scholarship/fellowship/housing support. We're in discussion about that now.)
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    Doug Anderson I am of two minds about this. Since I presently teach in an MFA program, I'm not keen to see them invalidated. But I understand how the capitalist aspect of the programs look: a conveyer belt on the factory floor sending out poets and fiction writers. MFA programs offer writers an opportunity of two years enjoyable study, with good teachers, during which they will produce a body of work that is both creative and critical. The degree of talent (or market savvy) they have will determine what happens after. An MFA will no longer get people teaching jobs and neither will a PhD. If a student is talented and capable of publishing they will have acquired mentors who will become their recommenders, letter writers, etc. At the very least, students will have had their minds expanded. Some of them will go into advertising, arts management, etc. I'm speaking of creative writing programs and not art programs. But I imagine it's pretty much the same.
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